engine cross member?

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[January 06, 2009, 10:18:51 AM] JimmyD\'s: 1977 vw camper wont start HELP

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[sublime8396]

hi everyone im a long time vw owner but just picked up my first bus without an engine.well i have a type 1 engine i want to put in but was wondering if i need to run the rear mount or if i can hang the engine like the bugs?im hoping to put the engine in tomarrow so any info would help thanks

[GostaBerling]

Sublime . Where are you located... In the states the 72 model used a different engine setup (the Type 4) and as such requires extensive modification to the cooling tins etc. in order to use a type 1 engine.

[sublime8396]

I'm in Nevada and yes mine did come with the type 4 engine but I'm putting in a complete type1 with the type1 cooling tins and converted to an alternator its a dual port 2332 and single Weber carb

[Theizzardking]

i believe you need to change the nose cone on the trans to fit a type one engine to 5 rib tranny also i believe the mustache bar i.e. engine cross member is different and besides all of that the mounting holes on a bug type 1 engine are different than the mounting holes for a bus type 1 engine again you can refer to the holes i'm talking about by looking at a pre 71 type 1 bus engine cross member. there is a 3 hole, hole pattern that is not shared between the 2.

[GostaBerling]

I do believe that the type 1 tin will not work in the type 4 engine compartment. You will need to customize it or find a company that sells the conversions.

[Theizzardking]

from ratwell.com  baywindow fahhhhhhhh-q section 1.2

You've got a 68-71 bus and you want to put a 72-79 engine in it? Virtually nobody does this...they just find a late model bus instead.

You've got a 72-79 bus and you want to swap in 1600 Type I engine from a beetle or a 68-71 bus. You've got a reason besides the fact you want less torque, want a harder working engine and no one is going to stop you. First the facts:

    * 68-71: 1600cc Type I engine (dual port heads in 1971)
    * 72-73: 1.7L Type IV engine
    * 74-75: 1.8L Type IV engine
    * 76-79: 2.0L Type IV engine
    * 80-83: 2.0L Type IV engine (Vanagon style)

The 72-79 engine is not a Porsche engine as every person selling a bus would like you to believe. The engine was first used on the 411/412 VWs and also used on the Porsche 914 which was a joint effort between VW and Porsche. It's more correct to say that Porsche used a VW engine. It shares as much in common with the 911 boxer engines as the Type I engine does (zip).

Not all Type 4 bus engines are the same: displacement matters.
Size    Bore    Stroke    HP    @RPM    ft.lbs    @RPM
1679cc    90mm    66mm    63    4800    81    3200
1795cc    93mm    66mm    65    4200    92    3000
1971cc    94mm    71mm    67    4200    101    3000

As the numbers illustrate, there is substantially more torque available in the 1.8L engine and even more in the 2.0L engines which is the favorite choice when time comes to replace the original engine. It's that 71mm stroke that gives the 2.0L it's extra oomph. In a heavy bus, you need all you can get.

Remember that torque is what moves the bus around. HP is simply derived from torque (HP = torque x RPM / 5252) and because bus engines aren't designed to be high revving you'll never see impression HP numbers from a stock bus engine.

The beetle engine support was the transmission carrier but the bus had a special engine mount affectionately called the mustache bar. It mounted to the rear (pump side) of the bus case. Because of this, you'll either need a "universal" case that has the mounts on it or you'll need the aftermarket support bracket that attaches to the oil pump. To adapt the mustache bar to a regular case, you'll need these parts:

   1. the oil pump adapter plate (Bugpack)
   2. two engine hangers (68-71)
   3. two rubber engine mounts (68-71)

See these installation photos of this conversion (courtesy Full Moon Bus Club member "Forge").

To make your case universal (the stronger solution) you can drill and tap the bosses cast into the beetle case:
There are 3 holes, I'll refer to them as 1, 2, and 3 left to right.
1 and 3 are along the same plane, 2 is a little over 71mm below that.

If you make a template, draw a line 190mm long mark hole #1 center 5mm from the left end of the line measure 178mm along the line from hole #1 center and mark hole #3 center.

scribe an arc below the line from hole #1, 104mm
scribe an arc below the line from hole #3, 125mm
where these arcs cross is hole #2

#1 is M10X1.5 x70 stud the hole is 22mm deep 8.5mm drill bit or 21/64" worked
#2 is M8X1.25 x55 stud the hole is 28mm deep 6.8mm drill bit or 17/64" worked
#3 is M10X1.5 x70 stud the hole is 28mm deep 8.5mm drill bit or 21/64"

Measurements courtesy of Jamie Rivers

Some folks think you don't need the engine support bar if you have a 72-79 bus with the transmission carrier mounted to the body. The weight of the engine with stock exhaust is probably 4-5x the weight of the transmission. The transmission carrier is not at a balancing point on the body so the unbalanced weight of the engine will be bourne by the nosecone pressing against the torsion housing because the rear support bar is missing. Bad idea. If you have a 68-71 body and you are simply putting a bettle engine in, you have no choice but to use the moustache bar.

The next problem you'll have is finding the compatible engine tin to use. You'll need to get the all of the tin from a 72-79 euro bus that had the stock 1600 motor or use a fiberglass replacement like this one:
Fiberglass Engine Tin Adapter from BusDepot.

[vdubyah73]

If your 72 has an og tranny your type one will bolt up and work. Does the bus have a rear cross bar mount? Doesn't cost much to have a professional welder make it fit. Heres the conversion piece.

http://www.creativecarcraft.com/notforbug.htm
NOTFORBUGS


I did this 26 years ago to a burnt bus, used a 1600 dual port stock, worked well for a daily driver.

[sublime8396]

thank you everyone i did fit the engine with t1 tins into the bus it drives great the rear mount had been cut and moved so it wont line up with the engine oh and my engine has the 3 holes in it so now I'm not to sure what is out of but now i need to build a new rear mount and i should be good to go

[Theizzardking]

could be an as-1 universal case or an oem bus case, one thing is for certain now, it was never an oem bug engine, so good deal for you man! get that cross member and chuck the f'er in. 

[sublime8396]

i cant wait to get this thing on the road then i get to find a top my camper top is tore up so i need to replace it or have it replaced i hear its kinda rough to do yourself

[Theizzardking]

what replacing the canvas or the whole top? making a whole new firber glass top would be tough, but installing a new canvas is not, it's only held on the bus by a few small rails with tiny screws you simply leave the hinges on the bus undo these rails remove the canvas and replace, i've swapped the tops around on more than a few of these guys and never had a problem other than some pos po stripping the tiny screws. here is probably what your l;ooking @ if you have a westy, what kind of top do you have on yours ? rivi,westy,dorm,sports,high-top?

[sublime8396]

i just need to replace the canvas. so its not that hard? Ive been pricing them between 2 and 3 hundred do you know anywhere i can get a good quality one at reasonable price?

[Theizzardking]

my books marks for vw stores and such, arrows for my preferred vendors. shoot scott @ german supply an email and ask him what the best quality one is,  i believe the wolfsburg site has the standard replacement used by most but i think i remember about a few better ones floating around (more money of course) the fabric that is used is called sumbrella, just make sure the canvas you chose is made of a similar fabric. as others grow mold and soak through and such. let me know if you need any other info.

VW STORES/PARTS
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C27%2DJ12374
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